How Kareem 'Big K.O.' Denis and Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels are bringing hard rock guitar back to hip-hop

When we think about guitar-driven music in all its forms, we don't often align it with hip-hop. Still, if we harken back to hip-hop's earlier years, the six-string indeed has its place.

Kareen Denis, a producer, songwriter, and guitarist who goes by the moniker 'Big K.O.,' knows this about as well as anybody, considering he was raised in an era where artists such as Run-DMC and ZZ Top happily coexisted on MTV and FM radio. In recent years, Denis has made it a mission of sorts to dial back and, once again, aid in bridging the widening gap between rock and hip-hop.

"For me, the foundation of funk and soul guitar was and is Gibson humbuckers," Denis states. "The Funk Brothers were stellar, with their trio of guitarists Robert White, Eddie Willis, and Joe Messina. Two out of the three played Gibsons. Robert with a big body L5 and my hero Eddie 'Chank' on a Firebird. He and Dennis Coffey – another legendary Motown cat who swore by them in the studio – are why I started playing them. Check out Cloud Nine by the Temptations to listen to what these cats were doing in 1968."

But for Denis, his influences don't end there. Specifically, rock and metal have been paramount to his development: "The list of rock guys who have influenced me is long, man. First, Leslie West. The pacing, the space, and that New York attitude… I get a lot of that from Leslie. And then you had Eddie Van Halen, Randy Rhoads, and Tony Iommi."

"Of course, there's [David] Gilmour, who, again, had the pacing, space, and the feeling," Denis continues. "And I'm a huge Kiss fan; I grew up digging live albums. Kiss Alive II is my favorite hard rock album of all time. Also, Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous was great, too."

Given his influence, the news that Denis has been hard at work with legendary hip-hop-meets-rock icon Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels is intriguing news. Moreover, the early returns from their collaboration, Ghetto Metal, are reminiscent of McDaniels' iconic Run-DMC track, Walk This Way, recorded alongside Aerosmith in the '80s.

When asked about his forays into rock music, McDaniels dialed back to his early years: "In my neighborhood, when I was growing up, my black friends' older brothers and uncles were in bands that played funk, R&B, disco, and rock. When hip-hop came along, punk, funk, electro, rock, and all that was everywhere. So, we were exposed to what was going on with rock and metal by the street and club DJs."

"We worked in a Chung King House of Metal studio, where the Beastie Boys, Anthrax, Slayer, and other punk and metal bands were recorded," McDaniels continues. "Run-DMC was just the first to put rock, metal, and rap on a record with Rock Box; we brought it all together. People ask why we did that… because it was always an influence. It was hard, mean, loud, aggressive, and cool because that's what we were into."

Busy preparing for the release of Ghetto Metal, Kareem 'BIG K.O.' Denis and Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels dialed in with Guitar World to talk hanging out with Billy Gibbons, the importance of the guitar in hip-hop, the peculiarities of Gibson Firebirds, and the enduring influence of Run-DMC on rock music.

As a producer for multiple genres, what makes the guitar the common thread?

BIG K.O.: "The phrase 'the blues and jazz are the roots, everything else is the fruit' comes to mind. I think that throughout all my productions, even the heavier stuff has both elements. There's no rock without roll and no blues without rhythm. Being in the player's seat is more fun. 

"Producing, especially for artists like DMC, can be pressure-filled, not from him but from my own expectations as a fan. It's cool to feel like an 11-year-old playing King of Rock in my room while writing riffs. It gets serious when you hit record as a producer, though."

What more can you tell me about Stick' Em Up?

BIG K.O.: "It's my tribute to Thin Lizzy and Phil Lynott. I love the sound the band got on it. Thin Lizzy's Live and Dangerous meant a lot to me, and Stick' Em Up is a reimagined version of It's Only Money. My drummer, Ephram Molina, and bassist, Rich Clemson, laid down a banging groove. I dig the solos and tones on it. I close-mic'ed my Benson amp and got a great fuzz tone. It's our show opener… three minutes of funk rock goodness [Laughs]."

How do you go about getting your tone? Do Eddie Martinez and Joe Perry's tone featured across '80s Run-DMC cuts influence you?

BIG K.O.: "At home, my rig is split into the amp and my DAW. So, if I'm jamming watching TV and inspiration strikes, those ideas can instantly go down. I love the TONEX Pedal and software from IK Multimedia. I have super-accurate captures of my amp in the pedal, so if I need to leave my custom amp at home and run a power amp pedal and cab with TONEX, I can.

"Eddie Martinez is a big influence of mine. I was lucky enough to have him sign the inside of my amp before it was shipped from Portland, so it's very special to me. His work throughout the '80s with Robert Palmer, [Mick] Jagger, Meatloaf, and of course on Rock Box and King of Rock… I've told him many times I stand on his shoulders. Eddie has been supportive, and he's answered any questions I've had about recording those classic tunes. Sometimes your musical heroes are great people as well."

Tell me about working with Val B King, the granddaughter of B.B. King.

BIG K.O.: "Working with Val has been one of the great honors of my career. Amazing vocals are one thing, but tone and soul are another. She's regal. I was honored to bring her to Gibson; they gave her a tour and thanked her for her grandfather's legacy. It was a misty-eyed moment for both of us. Our single Fire and Ice is out now, and we're working on the album. B.B. is the king. Period. His legacy will live forever through his music and his wonderful family. I can't wait for people to check Val's album."

What does B.B.'s work mean to you?

BIG K.O.: "Is B.B. present in my playing? Does a Polar Bear pee in the snow? [Laughs]. Absolutely – in fact, I met Val because she commented on a B.B. cover I posted on Instagram. She commented, 'Dope!' And that's all I needed! I slid right into the DMs to discuss music! [Laughs]."

DMC: "B.B. King always hung out and played with [Eric] Clapton just to hang out and be friends. Nowadays, anything that's universally sacred to the culture and art form, no-one puts that out in front as most important. For me, B.B.'s stuff has always been good, nice, fun stuff."

Give me the rundown on being mentored by Billy Gibbons. How has he changed your playing?

BIG K.O.: "I met Billy and his amazing guitar tech, Evan [Bovee], at a show in Tampa back in 2021. I dropped off some Expandora Fuzz pedals and some Adidas. About a week later, I got a thank you text, and we just naturally bonded over all things music and culture. I told him I discovered ZZ Top while watching MTV as an 8-year-old waiting for Run-DMC's Rock Box to come on.

"The seeds were planted that day in 1983. I saw these super-cool cats that were a trio and stylistically unique, just like Run-DMC. Their look said one thing, but their music – particularly those songs off Eliminator – had a drum machine bounce that was infectious. Billy has confirmed some folklore for me: heavy picks and string gauge, for one, that's been invaluable."

Mr Gibbons certainly knows his gear…

BIG K.O.: "I hooked up with Billy in November of 2022, and a few weeks before Christmas, I brought him some gifts: an X-Drive pedal from IK Multimedia and some other stuff. Billy was like, 'Hold up!' Then, he disappeared to the back of the bus and came out with a Beetronics Swarm pedal.

"And then, 20 minutes later, while talking about food again, he disappeared and emerged with hot sauce! [Laughs]. I came to find out that Billy has a pork rind line coming out, and I was telling him how DMC has Darryl Makes Cookies gourmet, and I have the BIG K.O. burger! So, we bonded over food.

"Aside from that, we rapped about Minneapolis funk as he was shooting a video with Morris Day later that week. I told Billy I'm currently using 8's, and he was like a proud uncle. He actually goes down to 7's at times! [Laughs]. Billy then gave me some tips for my bad back and heavy guitars: chamber the shit outta them. He has an SG that's four pounds!"

How has Billy influenced your work on the DMC record? Was the goal to make something as impactful as Walk This Way?

BIG K.O.: "Guitar, slide, and vibes! I'm looking to catch some of the same magic Walk This Way had. The world is so divided, so the music that unites people is big for us. I have some huge-sounding tracks that I think the fans of both Run-DMC and ZZ-Top will dig. I'm talking big drums and nasty licks [Laughs]. But yes, my bar is Walk This Way."

On your end, DMC, considering your history, is it safe to say that '70s rock radio was important to you?

DMC: "'70s rock radio is important to me because I didn't have music that defined me then. I didn't have my own record player and record collection, so rock radio became my crate of records. I was a kid and then a teen, and soul music was already my mom and dad's music, so I wanted something different.

"I was into comic books, and when I heard the hard drums and loud guitars, the sound of rock music seemed a lot like superheroes to me – it was powerful. So, the sound of the '70s became my theme song and title music. I guess that's how King of Rock was born."

Tell me about Ghetto Metal and your musical chemistry with BIG K.O.

DMC: "K.O. is a kid who had metal as his hip-hop superpower. He's a metal man to the core. It's in his DNA. But nobody from his culture knew that language, so when he heard Rock Box, he found proof that he was not alone. We spoke his hip-hop language

So, naturally, he can create exactly what's needed to connect, capture, and satisfy the metal and hip-hop head. Having said that, Ghetto Metal is our tribute to where it all comes from and who we are inspired by: Eddie Van Halen, Slash, Hendrix, et cetera. We're paying homage to those who gave us a sound and direction for our style of hip-hop."

Thinking back on tracks like King of Rock, Walk This Way, and It's Tricky… why do you feel your biggest hits seem to be guitar-oriented?

DMC: "Plain and simple – I was born to be a rock god [Laughs]. But I had to find my own lane, plus… guitars sound dope. The musicians gave me the music, and without the guitars, drums, and bass, for example, what do I have? A combination of rock, metal, and hip-hop gave me the sound, so all I needed was a microphone to become something. I'm glad the world thought what we were doing was cool."

Tell me about Heroes 4 Hire and the meaning behind the verse.

DMC: "We live in very divisive times. Politically, religiously, economically, and racially speaking, there's so much negativity on the forefront – and within the media – artistically. While it's destroying our culture, that's not our truth. Travis Barker once said that when he heard Rock Box, he knew he was down with me and could relate. That blew me away.

"And the guys in Sum 41 said when they heard King of Rock, that's when they formed their band. So, the verse is basically how art and culture get destroyed, overlooked, and disrespected. They've taken our culture and used words that are not true. Hip-hop is so much more than money, cars, drugs, violence, and guns. Moreover, rock isn't dead at all."

Run-DMC and Metallica's debut records came out the same year, and both groups were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in the same year. Would you say Run-DMC influenced guitar-driven music as much as a group such as Metallica?

DMC: "We come from an era before recorded hip-hop music. So, before we made records, we heard Black Sabbath, Led Zeppelin, and Van Halen, just to name a few. We listened to the same music the so-called 'white rock bands' listened to. So, what Metallica was hearing and doing… we heard all that, too. So, I think that Metallica and Run-DMC represent music's beauty, power, and unity. Going into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame the same day with them was mind-blowing."

K.O., you're known for your love of Gibson Firebirds. What makes them your go-to?

BIG K.O.: Several super-cool things make Firebirds my go-to. For one, it's the only guitar in the Gibson line that uses its own special pickups. Firebird pickups and mini-humbuckers are two differently constructed pickups that are often confused. A quick way to tell them apart is the mini-hum has adjustable pole pieces, while the Firebird does not. The magnet lays flat, so you get a lower number of winds.

"Back in the day, there were various winds, making them sound unique, especially in the neck position. I have signature Firebird pickups wound by Dylan Talks Tone. The goal was more windings, with a consistent, articulate output. They sound amazing. My good friend Jim DeCola over at Gibson has been great in helping me understand and study the history of the Firebird and its production."

What about amplifiers?

BIG K.O.: "You know, I was like every kid in the '80s - I wanted a full Marshall stack. I saw them in the Beastie Boys' No Sleep 'til Brooklyn video, and I thought, 'That's what I need.' But when I finally got that full stack – a JCM900 Reverb – I found it cool but absolutely unnecessary for my needs. 

"Then I went in the opposite direction and started trying small combos like the Marshall Class 5. And around 2017, Supro sent me a cool Statesman combo, which started me down the larger open-back combo route. Eventually, I heard about Benson amps and their work for Celisse. That was a game-changer for me.

"So, I bought their preamp and dug it so much that I wanted the amp it was based on, the Benson Chimera. I wound up sending an email to the info page on their website, and Chis Benson himself called me back; he sent me a 4x10 Chimera and I found that it was so incredible-sounding that I based my Custom Amp, 'The Rockbox,' on it. It's been a full-circle dream to work on this amp with Chris; it's the most dynamic and clean amp that I've ever heard. It's not just a pedal platform; it's a sonic stage.

Who are some of your favorite young guitarists?

BIG K.O.: "I really dig Celisse. She has a lot of soul. I also have to say that my fellow Benson amp player, Kingfish, is also amazing!"

What are your thoughts on the perception that guitar doesn't belong in hip-hop?

BIG K.O.: "It's been there, but mainly in the capacity of replaying samples. But the early hip-hop I came up with was just as heavy as any metal: Run-DMC, Public Enemy, The Beastie Boys – the hip-hop rock holy trinity.

"Also, there was a glorious time in 1987 when Slayer was on Def Jam, Anthrax was managed by Rush Management and had dope stuff out like I'm The Man. Run-DMC and Aerosmith were changing music, Vernon Reid was dropping heavy riffs on Public Enemy records, and Public Enemy was sampling Slayer. That's the school I'm from, and in time, the guitar will return to being dominant in hip-hop."

DMC: "I've played with Jackyl, The Royal Machines, and Aerosmith. And Ice T and Body Count are doing the remix for the Me, Myself & My Microphone song by Bumpy Knuckles, featuring me, Ice, Chuck D, and Jazzy Jeff that we recently released. And I'm on a metal remake of Jungle Love with Tom Hunting from Exodus that's out now.

"Plus, K.O. dropped Ghetto Metal, and we're getting ready to blow heads off with Hero for Hire. That tells you all you need to know – hip-hop is doing great, and rock music is alive and kicking, too. Ultimately, I feel that music succeeds where politics and religion fail. Like Steven Tyler did with his mic stand in the Walk This Way video, we will keep rocking because we are bringing people together by knocking down the walls that separate us."